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157 Comments

Seasick Seasick
but im leaving so don't include me in your fighting, this topic is not what i get on popsugar for and i won't waste any more time than i already have. So goodbye and have a nice time doing what you're doing. ps--- my god that was a quick response. I just got on here. do you live on this posts just to fight and argue and keep tension going? GBye
Seasick Seasick
yeah, i'm catching up and frakly i can't even believe some of the stuff I've read on this particular post.
Seasick Seasick
i find it ironic that RRainbows can add so many ROFLs and smiley faces to her comments in a posts about slavery. (I don't care what her excuse is, nothing is funny enough to have so many ROFL's as she does bout such a sensitive posting) According to her she can't even bare the "thought" of the atrocities, but she can LMAO at the same time. what a hypocrite.
raptinrainbows raptinrainbows
ah, seasick, we meet again. :oy:
raptinrainbows raptinrainbows
ashleydaigh: you're missing the larger point. again i say, yes, slavery existed before it began in america. and, yes, other people have been brutalized, tortured and horrifically killed, including throuh being worked to death. (i do not now and have never made light of any of this.) in short, yes, no doubt each of the elements of american slavery could be found at some other period in history and at some other place in the world. what made american slavery unique (i keep having to repeat this) was the confluence of each of these elements at one time and in one place, combined with the larger pyschological co-optation of the majority of the white folks at the time into supporting (often, even against their own best interests!) the institution and the enduring division of the races. compared to this last and larger point, any spouting of 5% stats is meaningless. now, i haven't discussed scholarship funds or any of the other current controversies, so i wish you'd refrain from putting words into my mouth.
Seasick Seasick
what long essays and spirited people on here. and Raprainbows your post are very long and very boring. you are a self serving commentor and i can't stand reading your posts. you act like you are the only one on here that has the right opinion about anything, and before you come back with some rambling comment on how you are right and i am wrong get the **** over yourself!
raptinrainbows raptinrainbows
mistyedge: i notice that when substance fails you, you don't hesitate to unleash your vitriol. you need to learn how to handle debate and disagreement, however vehement.now, on to your "points":you say that i've been a bad, bad girl :cry: who has called you ridiculous, pathetic and ignorant. well, one out of three isn't bad. do you make a habit of taking general statements of observation personally? that must make for an uncomfortable life for you, no? the tv show comment wasn't even directed at you personally. sure, it was in response to one of your earlier comments, but my response went far beyond you. now, as for your being ridiculous, pathetic and ignorant: i certainly did say that one of your comments was ridiculous. what else would you call it when you insert into my mouth the very statement i took such care to point out was not being made? did i call you ridiculous? no, just your comment. i'm sure when you think about it, you'll see the difference. and i certainly did say that it's pathetic how many people enjoy and celebrate ignorance. did i say that you were pathetic? nope, i think not. now, let's get to the last one: to me, anyone who can say that most slaves were happy in their subjugation is ignorant.as for your implication that i somehow want others to think that i'm a "little innocent person", where on earth did you come up with that? :rotfl: wow, you are so far off the mark with that one.on a serious note, i have a deep and abiding revulsion to the atrocities that man has inflicted on man over the history of the world. to say that i don't simply because i have challenged you on substantive points is, to put it generously, disingenuous. can you possibly see and understand that to challenge you is not to condone atrocities?as for the bakke decision, i really have no idea where you're going with that. :rotfl: some of my language was exactly the same? well, if that's so, i will pat myself on the back for having such a stellar memory. it's been almost a decade since i read bakke, but i'm glad to know it stuck. by the way, i don't see how anyone can have an intelligent discussion about why affirmative action is around today without reference to the actual language of the case; the devil really is in the details -- the actual wording used. sorry if that somehow escaped you.
raptinrainbows raptinrainbows
mistyedge: i notice that when substance fails you, you don't hesitate to unleash your vitriol. you need to learn how to handle debate and disagreement, however vehement. now, on to your "points": you say that i've been a bad, bad girl :cry: who has called you ridiculous, pathetic and ignorant. well, one out of three isn't bad. do you make a habit of taking general statements of observation personally? that must make for an uncomfortable life for you, no? the tv show comment wasn't even directed at you personally. sure, it was in response to one of your earlier comments, but my response went far beyond you. now, as for your being ridiculous, pathetic and ignorant: i certainly did say that one of your comments was ridiculous. what else would you call it when you insert into my mouth the very statement i took such care to point out was not being made? did i call you ridiculous? no, just your comment. i'm sure when you think about it, you'll see the difference. and i certainly did say that it's pathetic how many people enjoy and celebrate ignorance. did i say that you were pathetic? nope, i think not. now, let's get to the last one: to me, anyone who can say that most slaves were happy in their subjugation is ignorant. as for your implication that i somehow want others to think that i'm a "little innocent person", where on earth did you come up with that? :rotfl: wow, you are so far off the mark with that one. on a serious note, i have a deep and abiding revulsion to the atrocities that man has inflicted on man over the history of the world. to say that i don't simply because i have challenged you on substantive points is, to put it generously, disingenuous. can you possibly see and understand that to challenge you is not to condone atrocities? as for the bakke decision, i really have no idea where you're going with that. :rotfl: some of my language was exactly the same? well, if that's so, i will pat myself on the back for having such a stellar memory. it's been almost a decade since i read bakke, but i'm glad to know it stuck. by the way, i don't see how anyone can have an intelligent discussion about why affirmative action is around today without reference to the actual language of the case; the devil really is in the details -- the actual wording used. sorry if that somehow escaped you.
AshleyDaigh AshleyDaigh
rapitanrainbow get over yourself PUULEEZE! yeah slavery sucked major balls just like Adrianne said, but your little statistics and name calling can just go to the hen house if you get my drift. you claim that American slaves had it the hardest, that's major BS. The most harshest BY FAR was Between 1930 and 1960, and was the Soviet regime in Siberia. They were worked to death on extreme production quotas, brutality, hunger and harsh elements. The fatality rate was as high as 80% during the first months in many of these camps. They had to endure extremes that you or I could never even imagine. I can't believe that there are so many people who are bitching about what Adrianne said, most people don't know that only about 5% of white southerners even owned slaves. All the slaves that were captured by the Portuguese, Spanish, and Africans themselves were put on a ship and only a fraction of the enslaved Africans brought to the New World ended up in the area that is now the USA, only about 7%. The vast majority of slaves shipped across the Atlantic were sent to the Caribbean sugar colonies, Brazil, or Spanish America. So yeah, i don't understand why people want America to anti up when the other countries were way more to blame for slavery. There has been slavery since the beginning of time to today .It still goes on people. Instead of complaining about something that happened to people you didn't even know and who are dead now, you should be trying to help the men, women and children who are slaves and living in chains as we speak!!! People do your research before you go spouting off at the keyboard.
MistyEdge MistyEdge
Thanks Elsa :) RaptinRainbows loves to argue and she spends most of her time disagreeing and trying to prove people wrong. After the following post to her I'm done with trying to have a conversation with someone who can only speak with condescending overtones and copy and pastes info instead of using thoughts of her own. To RRainbows: I didn't say the American Indians were slaves..but actually they were enslaved at one point, if you know so much about the trails of tears then you would know this..I only brought the American Indian culture to light to say that out of every culture that think they have been wronged..the American Indian has the most right to Complain about being wronged...but once again you try to come back with something hateful to say all the while trying to act like such thoughts just tear at your heart...give me a break..the way you unleash your hate with your comments to complete strangers I find it hard to believe you are this little innocent person sitting behind your computer who can't bear the thought of atrocities committed against man by man, because you don't try to spare anyone your hateful rants.. You have called me ridiculous, pathetic, and ignorant...and I'm supposed to be the bad guy right, because I happen to know a different side of history. You even commented on me negaively because I knew some black shows that aired during the 70's..you said it must have been because they were an oddity..WRONG! I remembered them because I watched them and they were some of my favorites and someone had mentioned that there were NO BLACK shows at all on TV..But because I was simply showing that, that statement was inncorrect..you try and slam me and make up your own reasoning on why I remembered them...lololol now who is ridiculous??? You are the one with issues..you try to belittle ANYONE who disagrees with you, and I don't mean just on this post..I mean on EVERY POST. You and HOTSTUFF are one in the same if you ask me, because when one comment is there from one of you, then the other is not far behind always agreeing to the hilt ith the other..even on posts like these that are pages behind the most read at POSUGAR. Hummm... As for Hotstuff's comment on me not being on the same level as you are...LOL for once I agree..and THANK GOD I'm not on your "level". and it's so funny RapinRainbows..your long comment...is strikingly similar to some excerpts from Regents of the University of California v. Bakke No. 7811 Argued: October 12, 1977 --- Decided: June 28, 1978 some of your wording was EXACTLY the same...isn't that funny.
ElsaBeK ElsaBeK
Excellent, intelligent posts MistyEdge...You could win a debate any day! I agree with what you've posted as well. Raptinrainbow..Its hard to accept,I know, but some slaves were quite happy,and after the war they did return to the plantations they previously lived on... there is some true accounts of this. The fact is in this day and age,every one has equal rights,and it is extremely foolish to think that anyone should get special treatment for something that was done to their ancestors over a 100 years ago..inflicted by a small and select group of individuals at that...the by far greater part of the nation was strongly opposed to slavery. Move on people!!
ElsaBeK ElsaBeK
Excellent, intelligent posts MistyEdge...You could win a debate any day! I agree with what you've posted as well. Raptinrainbow..Its hard to accept,I know, but some slaves were quite happy,and after the war they did return to the plantations they previously lived on... there is some true accounts of this. The fact is in this day and age,every one has equal rights,and it is extremely foolish to think that anyone should get special treatment for something that was done to their ancestors over a 100 years ago..inflicted by a small and select group of individuals at that...the by far greater part of the nation was strongly opposed to slavery. Move on people!!
hotstuff hotstuff
raptinrainbows you are debating with someone who is clearly not on your level! BRAVO you have stated your position beautifully, I applaud your effort to TRY and enlighten people who are frankly not worth the time!
raptinrainbows raptinrainbows
clearly too involved to focus on html, lol.
raptinrainbows raptinrainbows
1. not an internet article. the name of the book, should you like some real facts, is a people's history of the united states. 2. you persist in misinterpreting what i've said and in inserting into my posts things i never wrote. for example, to which point of mine is this a response: "You seem to forget that the white plantation owners purchased the slaves..Not every white person in the South had slaves"? i haven't forgotten a thing, thanks. just because i don't discuss every aspect of slavery (slave-owning class, slavery demographics, percentage of slaves to non-slaves, etc.) doesn't mean i've "forgotten" a thing. i could go into all of this very easily, but i thought i'd spare us all. 3. who are you referring to (group and time period) by "hebrews"? 4. are you telling me that native americans were enslaved? you seem to be mixing apples and oranges. why do you persist in comparing atrocities? is there supposed to be a winner at the end of all of this? 5. as a student of history, i'm very well aware of the trail of tears. i need no one educating me on this point. is this a discussion you really want to get into? 6. as for protecting their investment, sure slaves were property and productive property generally was "protected", i.e., the bare minimum necessary to keep them functioning was considered suitable outlay. (by the way, where did you ever get the impression that i shy away from anything "harsh" or "controversial"?) are you seriously saying that the provision of a mean shack to rest one's head in for those spare hours when one wasn't being worked to death and a few ounces of meal a day made slavery a blissfully enjoyable institution that one would have been just crazy to want to escape?? just what are you saying?? i'm amazed that you so blithely seem to condone lifelong slavery which denied slaves the ability to marry, separated families, kept people ignorant and subjugated, and systematically physically and psychologically terrorized people by, among other things, legalizing\ punishments of whipping, burning, mutilation and, ultimately death (fancy that, some actually destroyed their "investments") by dismemberment, hanging, etc. 7. "most slaves were relatively happy"! you get this from the experience of your nanny? are you for real? first, you're referring to "house slaves" versus "field slaves", which is yet another example of the psychological subjugation practiced on africans brought to this country: creating disunity among them by separating them into field slaves and house slaves with higher status. second, have you any idea how much smaller the house slave population was than the field slave population?! don't for a second seek to use the house slave experience as representative of the general slave experience. (i could also go into detail about the so-called higher status of house slaves.) third, do you really think people were "happy" in an institution where they had their ears cut off for hitting a white person?! do you really think that the existence of the underground railroad and the persistent attempts at escape (despite the punishments, including killing, which you're in denial about) shows happiness or even contentment and that slaves were happy campers, just so gleeful to be able to pick cotton and wipe white ass? here's an excerpt from the virginia slave code: "Whereas many times slaves run away and lie hid and lurking in swamps, woods, and other obscure places, killing hogs and commiting other injuries to the inhabitants . . . if the slave does not immediately return, anyone whatsoever may kill or destroy such slaves by such ways and means as he . . . shall think fit. . . . If the slave is apprehended . . . it shall . . . be lawful for the county court, to order such punishment for the said slave, either by dismembering, or in any other way . . . as they in their discretion shall think fit, for the reclaiming of any such incorrigible slave, and terrifying others from the like practices. . . . what in any of that makes for a happy camper? 8. those who stayed on the plantation did so because they had no money, no property and no experience of life outside of their immediate environs. don't be fooled into thinking they stayed because the place of their enslavement was their "home".
raptinrainbows raptinrainbows
1. not an internet article. the name of the book, should you like some real facts, is <em>a people's history of the united states</em>.2. you persist in misinterpreting what i've said and in inserting into my posts things i never wrote. for example, to which point of mine is this a response: "You seem to forget that the white plantation owners purchased the slaves..Not every white person in the South had slaves"? i haven't forgotten a thing, thanks. just because i don't discuss every aspect of slavery (slave-owning class, slavery demographics, percentage of slaves to non-slaves, etc.) doesn't mean i've "forgotten" a thing. i could go into all of this very easily, but i thought i'd spare us all.3. who are you referring to (group and time period) by "hebrews"?4. are you telling me that native americans were enslaved? you seem to be mixing apples and oranges. why do you persist in comparing atrocities? is there supposed to be a winner at the end of all of this?5. as a student of history, i'm very well aware of the trail of tears. i need no one educating me on this point. is this a discussion you <i>really</i> want to get into?6. as for protecting their investment, sure slaves were property and productive property generally was "protected", i.e., the bare minimum necessary to keep them functioning was considered suitable outlay. (by the way, where did you ever get the impression that <i>i</i> shy away from anything "harsh" or "controversial"?) are you seriously saying that the provision of a mean shack to rest one's head in for those spare hours when one wasn't being worked to death and a few ounces of meal a day made slavery a blissfully enjoyable institution that one would have been just crazy to want to escape?? just what are you saying?? i'm amazed that you so blithely seem to condone lifelong slavery which denied slaves the ability to marry, separated families, kept people ignorant and subjugated, and systematically physically and psychologically terrorized people by, among other things, <i>legalizing\</i> punishments of whipping, burning, mutilation and, ultimately death (fancy that, some actually destroyed their "investments") by dismemberment, hanging, etc.7. "most slaves were relatively happy"! you get this from the experience of your nanny? are you for real? first, you're referring to "house slaves" versus "field slaves", which is yet another example of the psychological subjugation practiced on africans brought to this country: creating disunity among them by separating them into field slaves and house slaves with higher status. second, have you any idea how much smaller the house slave population was than the field slave population?! don't for a second seek to use the house slave experience as representative of the general slave experience. (i could also go into detail about the so-called higher status of house slaves.) third, do you really think people were "happy" in an institution where they had their ears cut off for hitting a white person?! do you really think that the existence of the underground railroad and the persistent attempts at escape (despite the punishments, including killing, which you're in denial about) shows happiness or even contentment and that slaves were happy campers, just so gleeful to be able to pick cotton and wipe white ass? here's an excerpt from the virginia slave code:<i>"Whereas many times slaves run away and lie hid and lurking in swamps, woods, and other obscure places, killing hogs and commiting other injuries to the inhabitants . . . if the slave does not immediately return, anyone whatsoever may kill or destroy such slaves by such ways and means as he . . . shall think fit. . . . If the slave is apprehended . . . it shall . . . be lawful for the county court, to order such punishment for the said slave, either by dismembering, or in any other way . . . as they in their discretion shall think fit, for the reclaiming of any such incorrigible slave, <i>and terrifying others from the like practices</i>. . . . what in any of that makes for a happy camper?8. those who stayed on the plantation did so because they had no money, no property and no experience of life outside of their immediate environs. don't be fooled into thinking they stayed because the place of their enslavement was their "home".
MistyEdge MistyEdge
I feel very comfortable with facts..please don't pat yourself on the back in that you can copy and paste someones article on the Internet...PLEASE. I beg to differ with you in that American slavery was the harshest of all time. It was not...Have you ever read what the Hebrews had to endure??? The American Indians I still feel was the biggest atrocity. This is their land and we are squatters as far as I see it. We gave them a bunch of dirt and waste land and said here call this "home"..on Indian reservations they have the highest percentage of teen suicide than any other culture. It's a sad sad thing the way the Indian's have been treated..Have you ever heard of the Trail of Tears and what happened during that? They are plagued by drug/alcohol abuse and poverty..so if anyone has a reason to bitch, it's them. You seem to forget that the white plantation owners purchased the slaves..Not every white person in the South had slaves, it was mainly the rich plantation owners..and just as someone purchases a horse or a cow..they did not want to lose their money by letting them get sick or die..they wanted to protect their investment so to speak. If stating facts are too harsh for you then maybe you shouldn't be commenting on this post. But the truth is the truth and I'm not too weak to type it. My mother is a history professor at the College of Charleston and for 10 years she taught at the Citadel. Both of which are located in Charleston SC and which is where a lot of the slave trade occurred so I have been taught about it since I was in elementary school. It is part of MY heritage.. I've actually been to the plantations and been to the actual market where the slave trade occurred. My family has lived for hundreds of years in South Carolina so I do know many things that actualy happened that I didn't have to read about in a book... I have seen the letters that were written by slaves and slave owners.. What MOST people in America do not know is that most slaves were relatively happy and were not beat and raped like most people think happened in every slave's everyday life. It just did not occur like that. Most slaves were treated as family and the owner's children would grow up loving their nannies just as they loved their own parents. During the Civil War, the government did not want America to think that any slaves were actually happy...they wanted everyone to believe that slaves were beat and raped and so forth..It did happen, but not to the extent that the Union wanted people to believe. That is why after the war, most of the slaves stayed on with the plantations and worked..because it was their home. Sorry if I misunderstood your comment on the US and slavery originating here..but by far it was not the most horrendous of all slavery...I don't know about the transportation of the slaves..because we touched very little on that and focused more on what happened in our state... I had a nanny who was the daughter of a slave...After slavery was abolished she still stayed with the plantation owner and he took care of her mother until the day she died around 1930 something...he continued taking care of her children (including Ida).. She was a nanny to my mother in 1943 and then to me when I was a baby in 1967..she was my Granny's best friend and I grew up loving her..I spent the night at her house and my family stayed next to her in her hospital room during her last days...she was born in 1900 and she died in 1992, the year after my daughter was born. Ida was one of the first people I brought my baby to visit after she was born. Slavery is and was a horrible thing..but there were many sides to it that the everyday American will never even hear about.
raptinrainbows raptinrainbows
and, by the way, i have never and would never compare the holocaust with american slavery. i would never stoop to the level of comparing atrocity to atrocity and i find it appalling that you feel so very comfortable doing so.
raptinrainbows raptinrainbows
and, by the way, i have <i>never</i> and would never compare the holocaust with american slavery. i would never stoop to the level of comparing atrocity to atrocity and i find it appalling that you feel so very comfortable doing so.
raptinrainbows raptinrainbows
now, since you brought it up, let's talk numbers:"By 1800, 10 to 15 million blacks had been transported as slaves to the Americas, representing perhaps <i>one-third</i> [emphasis, mine] of those originally seized in Africa. It is roughly estimated that Africa lost <i>50 million</i> [emphasis, mine] human beings to death and slavery in those centuries we call the beginnings of modern Western civilization, at the hands of slave traders and plantation owners in Western Europe and America, the countries deemed the most advanced in the world."let me know if you need specific details of the conditions of capture, transport, and slave "life" in america.
raptinrainbows raptinrainbows
now, since you brought it up, let's talk numbers: "By 1800, 10 to 15 million blacks had been transported as slaves to the Americas, representing perhaps one-third [emphasis, mine] of those originally seized in Africa. It is roughly estimated that Africa lost 50 million [emphasis, mine] human beings to death and slavery in those centuries we call the beginnings of modern Western civilization, at the hands of slave traders and plantation owners in Western Europe and America, the countries deemed the most advanced in the world." let me know if you need specific details of the conditions of capture, transport, and slave "life" in america.
raptinrainbows raptinrainbows
apologies for the double post.
raptinrainbows raptinrainbows
mistyedge, honestly, how ridiculous. after i took pains to point out that no one on this post said slavery originated in america, you say that i said that slavery originated in america. kindly re-read what i've been saying. what i in fact have said repeatedly now is that the institution of african slavery in america was unique. clearly, you need that explained for you. i defer to howard zinn, who is a much better author than i: "Slavery existed in the African states, and it was sometimes used by Europeans to justify their own slave trade. But, as Davidson points out, the 'slaves' of Africa were more like the serfs of Europe. It was harsh servitude, but they had rights which slaves brought to America did not have, and they were 'altogether different from the human cattle of the slave ships and the American plantations.' In the Ashanti Kingdom of West Africa, one observer noted that 'a slave might marry; own property; himself own a slave; swear an oath; be a competent witness and ultimately become heir to his master. . . . An Ashanti slave, nine cases out of ten, possibly became an adopted member of the family, and in time his descendants so merged and intermarried with the owner's kinsmen that only a few would know their origin.'" "African slavery is hardly to be praised. But it was far different from plantation or mining slavery in the Americas, which was lifelong, morally crippling, destructive of family ties, without hope of any future. African slavery lacked two elements that made American slavery the most cruel form of slavery in history: the frenzy for limitless profit that comes from capitalistic agriculture; the reduction of the slave to less than human status by the use of racial hatred, with that relentless clarity based on color, where white was master, black was slave." and this is only some of it . . . .
raptinrainbows raptinrainbows
mistyedge, honestly, how ridiculous. after i took pains to point out that <i>no one</i> on this post said slavery originated in america, you say that i said that slavery originated in america. kindly re-read what i've been saying.what i in fact have said repeatedly now is that the institution of african slavery in america was <i>unique</i>. clearly, you need that explained for you. i defer to howard zinn, who is a much better author than i:"Slavery existed in the African states, and it was sometimes used by Europeans to justify their own slave trade. But, as Davidson points out, the 'slaves' of Africa were more like the serfs of Europe. It was harsh servitude, but they had rights which slaves brought to America did not have, and they were 'altogether different from the human cattle of the slave ships and the American plantations.' In the Ashanti Kingdom of West Africa, one observer noted that 'a slave might marry; own property; himself own a slave; swear an oath; be a competent witness and ultimately become heir to his master. . . . An Ashanti slave, nine cases out of ten, possibly became an adopted member of the family, and in time his descendants so merged and intermarried with the owner's kinsmen that only a few would know their origin.'""African slavery is hardly to be praised. But it was far different from plantation or mining slavery in the Americas, which was lifelong, morally crippling, destructive of family ties, without hope of any future. African slavery lacked two elements that made American slavery the most cruel form of slavery in history: the frenzy for limitless profit that comes from capitalistic agriculture; the reduction of the slave to less than human status by the use of racial hatred, with that relentless clarity based on color, where white was master, black was slave."and this is only some of it . . . .
raptinrainbows raptinrainbows
mistyedge, honestly, how ridiculous. after i took pains to point out that no one on this post said slavery originated in america, you say that i said that slavery originated in america. kindly re-read what i've been saying. what i in fact have said repeatedly now is that the institution of african slavery in america was unique. clearly, you need that explained for you. i defer to howard zinn, who is a much better author than i: "Slavery existed in the African states, and it was sometimes used by Europeans to justify their own slave trade. But, as Davidson points out, the 'slaves' of Africa were more like the serfs of Europe. It was harsh servitude, but they had rights which slaves brought to America did not have, and they were 'altogether different from the human cattle of the slave ships and the American plantations.' In the Ashanti Kingdom of West Africa, one observer noted that 'a slave might marry; own property; himself own a slave; swear an oath; be a competent witness and ultimately become heir to his master. . . . An Ashanti slave, nine cases out of ten, possibly became an adopted member of the family, and in time his descendants so merged and intermarried with the owner's kinsmen that only a few would know their origin.'" "African slavery is hardly to be praised. But it was far different from plantation or mining slavery in the Americas, which was lifelong, morally crippling, destructive of family ties, without hope of any future. African slavery lacked two elements that made American slavery the most cruel form of slavery in history: the frenzy for limitless profit that comes from capitalistic agriculture; the reduction of the slave to less than human status by the use of racial hatred, with that relentless clarity based on color, where white was master, black was slave." and this is only some of it . . . .
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