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stephley stephley 7 years
That's when you brought up war earlier, as I said to Laine, who chastised me for emphasizing male deaths in battle and for which you said to me "kind of hard to keep straight who said what at times, isn't it?" :faint:
Grandpa Grandpa 7 years
Your point being...?
stephley stephley 7 years
Guess so - check out #93 (yours): 'Until the GI Bill, those kinds of resources were generally not available. You can pick and choose for the exception, but you can't take that exception and generalize from it. I can say that men fought and died to make a new country here. For you to point out Molly Pitcher, and claim gender bias in the contiental army is just arguing for the sake of arguing."
Grandpa Grandpa 7 years
Steph, you do not remember post #106. I will quote you: "But what men focused on directed it - because they were blowing each other up on battlefields, medical knowledge about tending wounds moved more quickly than other medical issues." kind of hard to keep straight who said what at times, isn't it?
stephley stephley 7 years
Laine, did you read G'pa's response? HE brought up Celts & fighting, he brought up war earlier. "But you have consistently said that men should do housework, and women should do manual (or other paid) labor." Nope, I never made any argument about men doing housework. It's irrelevent to the debate and personal choice.
Cassandra57 Cassandra57 7 years
I'm sure a lot of those evil soldiers, and hunters, and farmers died, too. You presume that all male death was in battle, and that the repairs were clean, hygenic and effective. What would an 1850's frontier town have done if a woman hemorrhaged in childbirth? Any internal damage is difficult to diagnose or fix without modern technology. If you can't physically see the source of the problem, it's "hidden". What would they have done if a hunter was trampled by a bison, or even a milk cow, and a broken rib punctured his lung? Both of those people would have been pretty much out of luck. "The point of the feminist movement was to give women choices in the the division of labor, not to dictate. That has been my point. " But you have consistently said that men should do housework, and women should do manual (or other paid) labor. Therefore, you are dictating your own standard. That's not freedom, it's a new slavery. What the feminists of the seventies actually did for us is double our workload. Now we have to work all day and still come home and do a second job. Remember the book "Second Shift"? :spin: This discussion is getting tedious and repetitive, and still hasn't looked at a lot of the big issues. I have too many other things to do. :wave:
Grandpa Grandpa 7 years
Facts are a stubborn thing Steph. I am looking at world history. At no time did I ever imply that women were inferior or men were superior. I think you are over sensitive, and look for whatever, off hand comment, or study in a prism where women are being demeaned.
stephley stephley 7 years
No, the historic concept of family is what it is. Strength isn't only proven by fighting G'pa, and women have and do manage to survive and thrive without the protection of menfolk. Men wage the wars, men decide who they'll protect in wars - war's a man's sport so using it to define women's strength is a loaded game. You assume that it is the natural way things had to be - I think choice played a huge role.
Grandpa Grandpa 7 years
What in world history leads you to say "G'pa indicated that women need men to protect then a couple of times, thus the 'weaker' sex reference. You can point out all the exceptions you want, but as they say "it is the exception that proves the rule". I think the Celts were the only nation/tribe/peoples where there is convincing evidence that women fought along with men in defending their society. You seem to be denying the historic concept of family, that is found down with through the ages, and across all cultures.
stephley stephley 7 years
Death in childbirth wasn't hidden or subtle - and repairing war wounds was much more than patching a hole here or there. G'pa indicated that women need men to protect then a couple of times, thus the 'weaker' sex reference. "It is as pompous for you to dictate others' division of labor as it is for them to demand that you should follow their methods." The point of the feminist movement was to give women choices in the the division of labor, not to dictate. That has been my point.
Cassandra57 Cassandra57 7 years
"…before liberation, women were severely limited in their ability to support the children they were left to raise alone…" I already made the point--a couple of times--that they also were more likely to get alimony and the house, in addition to child support. That is no longer true. Is it a net "plus"? That's a matter of opinion. I assumed that medicine evolved by first addressing the big, obvious problems, then looking at the more subtle or hidden ones. How they were caused is irrelevant to the point. Why would it have been otherwise? That's completely counter-intuitive--and not gender-based. Is it untrue that technology liberated *everyone* from some degree of manual labor? Because he limited the scope of the comment, does that invalidate the point? Women are definitely not the "weaker" sex; no one here except you has said that. Home-making and child-rearing are not for the faint of heart. Division of labor has evolved in similar ways in many cultures around the world. It is as pompous for you to dictate others' division of labor as it is for them to demand that you should follow their methods.
stephley stephley 7 years
"The original comment/complaint was that women get stuck after a divorce raising kids on their own." No, the original comment was that before liberation, women were severely limited in their ability to support the children they were left to raise alone - not that they have the children, but that employment and advancement opportunities were limited, as was child care. Like G'pa, you assume in medicine that things HAD to develop the way they did. G'pa brought up housework/homemaking by claiming appliances liberated women - because of course, housework and homemaking are women's work as assigned by nature. To me, they're only relevant if you consider women biologically tied to the home. But really, different divisions of labor have always been an option. Women may be the 'weaker' sex, but single women, poor women, women in convents, widows, women left to tend the homestead while a man is away at war, have managed to survive and flourish without the extra muscle.
Grandpa Grandpa 7 years
"Most women still have to do most of the housework" I am wondering how much of that is because women and men have a different perception of neatness and cleanliness then women do. Men drop a magazine, and know where it is, a few days later. Letting it sit open is no big deal. A woman has to have magazines stacked neatly. It is the same with dust. A guy might dust as he packs up to move out of his apt., or his GF makes a comment that leads him to believe life is not going to be good, until you "clean up the mess. It is at that point a guy knows how much he cares for his GF. If he tries to make the apt. neat enough to make sure she stays the night, then there is something maybe serious going on, other wise it is in the back of his mind “snide upstuck b*tch”, and moves on. The same with making a bed, you make a bed when you are going to have company that is going to view your bedroom, otherwise why bother? A guy can use a washrag for a month and a towel for a week, women thinks it is gross. Men are from Pigpen, and women are from Lucy. A single man can make and eat a meal only needing to wash one pan and one fork when finished, or if with a microwave, just one fork.
Cassandra57 Cassandra57 7 years
RE: Comment 107. I think you are chasing your own tail, here. The original comment/complaint was that women get stuck after a divorce raising kids on their own. My response was that, before "equality", divorce was rarer and wives were more likely to get alimony and often the family home. I wasn't the one complaining. You were complaining about the predictable aftereffects of "liberation". Regarding medicine, it's a lot easier to figure out the problem when someone has a great bleeding hole in his gut (whether from a spear or an ox) than if s/he's hemorrhaging internally, no matter what the reason. Broken limbs are pretty obvious. Most diseases are not. And all this carrying on about housework. How each couple chooses to divide their labor is personal, and none of anyone else's business. The fact is, most women still have to do most of the housework, even if they work full time outside the home. If housework is our most critical feminist issue, I think we need to set some new priorities.
Grandpa Grandpa 7 years
You are also ignoring the mans role in providing for his wife and children, to protect them from all threats. It was contra survival for early man to impregnate and move on. Those that did, generally lost the opportunity to pass his genetic material onto the next generation. Men ran out on their responsibilities, as did women (though much less often). Why did they do it? I think as we learn more and more about DNA, will have more and more answers. In either case they were the exception,and looked down upon by the rest of society.
Grandpa Grandpa 7 years
Not "housework", maintaining a home (there is a difference), and rearing children. I truly do believe biology was the determining factor in assigning gender roles historically and across all cultures.
stephley stephley 7 years
THE POINT IS that you assume it was natural that women had to wait until appliances were invented to free them from housework - as it were dictated by nature and not the choices that people made. YOU inextricably link women to housework.
Grandpa Grandpa 7 years
What if the Greeks had gone that extra step in developing a steam engine, what if the progress made by Galen of Rome in the area of anatomy, surgery, and medicine was continued? What if the Hannibal destroyed Rome before they became a conquering force? What if the Celts legal system was the basis of our law? What if.... If wishes were horses beggars would ride
Grandpa Grandpa 7 years
Not sure if I agree that my last post falls into "scattered thoughts", when looked at in the context of your previous posts.
stephley stephley 7 years
That's a lot of scattered thoughts Gpa. So even if someone else's will had dominated in science, in medicine, things HAD to happen in the order in which they happened? If, for instance, the Church hadn't condemned Galileo, and scientists had felt free to immediately build on his ideas and share theirs, advances still would have happened in the same order? What if midwives had been taken seriously and trained in the medicine of their day? You don't think they could have contributed observations and information that might have moved life-saving discoveries more quickly?
Grandpa Grandpa 7 years
Steph, the Romans had the best medical corps for its military in all history, until the turn of the 20th century. Lots of wars in between and no progress. Tending wounds is a lot easier then curing disease. How about the money allocated to curing breast cancer, compare it to the money set aside for a cure for prostrate cancer. The progress in virtually every area of science grew exponentially during both world wars. The same progress resulted from putting a man on the moon.
stephley stephley 7 years
"That was not a complaint. I was pointing out one of the effects of equality. If you want equity, it can cut both ways. You'll be sad to know that your assumptions are incorrect. I'm happy as a bug in a long-term marriage where we both work and contribute. I do my full share, and then some." Then on whose behalf are you complaining? If you're happy being equal, and I'm happy being equal, who are you worried about?
stephley stephley 7 years
"Somehow I don't think doctors could surpass the scope of medical knowledge. Yes, women died in childbirth. People died of cancer and lots of other things, too. Sorry to disappoint, but death is not gender-specific." But what men focused on directed it - because they were blowing each other up on battlefields, medical knowledge about tending wounds moved more quickly than other medical issues.
Grandpa Grandpa 7 years
Lain, that is why those men in the past who could give birth died out hundreds of thousand years ago. When it comes to resisting disease, or deprived of food or water, women have a substantial advantage over men. Evolution demanded it. I love those movies where the hero says "save the water for the women and children". Hey buddy you will need it to live long before the women. :rotfl:
Cassandra57 Cassandra57 7 years
"where did I ask for your credentials? " I didn't say you asked for them, I said you questioned them. Your assumptions in comment 89: "You were too busy disco dancing to notice...." "Women should have the choice - some are better equipped for harder work than housework..." What makes you think they did not make that choice? Are they obligated to agree with you? "...your complaint earlier that women aren't as likely to get the house in a divorce" That was not a complaint. I was pointing out one of the effects of equality. If you want equity, it can cut both ways. You'll be sad to know that your assumptions are incorrect. I'm happy as a bug in a long-term marriage where we both work and contribute. I do my full share, and then some. Somehow I don't think doctors could surpass the scope of medical knowledge. Yes, women died in childbirth. People died of cancer and lots of other things, too. Sorry to disappoint, but death is not gender-specific.
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