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Jillness Jillness 8 years
Raci, you gotta admit that your point was proven false. You said Obama was corporate because he supported big oil. Your example was that he voted to help the oil companies. Now you know that he voted to RAISE TAXES for oil companies. You have to recognise that Hillary has lied, and she voted against increasing taxes for oil companies. The reality is the opposite of her spin. She voted against increasing taxes for oil companies. Perhaps you would consider that Obama is not has corporate as you were lead to believe.
raciccarone raciccarone 8 years
"In fact, the bill President Bush signed into law in 2005 actually raised taxes on the oil industry overall. The nonpartisan Congressional Research Service said that the Energy Policy Act "included several oil and gas tax incentives, providing about $2.6 billion of tax cuts for the oil and gas industry. In addition, [the act] provided for $2.9 billion of tax increases on the oil and gas industry, for a net tax increase on the industry of nearly $300 million over 11 years." Over the next 11 years the oil/gas industry will pay 300 million dollars? Guess what? They made that much money today.
Jillness Jillness 8 years
Congressional Research Service later calculated that the oil and gas industry lost more tax breaks than it gained in the 2005 legislation, resulting in a net tax increase that CRS put at $300 million over an 11-year period. Not mentioned by Clinton is the fact that (as we've noted several times before) the $14.3 billion in tax breaks in the bill included large incentives for alternative fuels research and subsidies for energy-efficient cars, homes and buildings. So while Clinton and Obama were on opposite sides, her ad is misleading to suggest that his vote represented support for "Bush Cheney" perks for oil companies. By the time Obama voted for final passage, many of the Bush administration's original proposals had been stripped out, and in fact most Senate Democrats (including some of Clinton's most vocal supporters) sided with Obama in supporting the bill. Clinton was one of only 19 Democrats to vote against final passage. Obama was among the 25 Democrats who voted in favor.
Jillness Jillness 8 years
Morefrom Factcheck: Clinton takes lots of money from lobbyists and PACs from a wide variety of companies and industries. In fact, just as Obama's ad states, she has accepted more from PACs ($1,157,939) and from current and former lobbyists ($865,290) than any other candidate of either party, according to public records tallied by the Center for Responsive Politics. (McCain is second in both categories, with $687,794 from PACs and $590,952 from individual lobbyists.) The figures are based on the most recent reports filed, as of March 20. (CRP also shows $115,163 from lobbyists to Obama, though he says this is all from former lobbyists, not those currently active.)
Jillness Jillness 8 years
unDave, yes that "present" thing was a big spin ploy as well. He voted over 4,000 times! There were only a few that were "present", and it was a strategic manuver to shake off manipulative add ons to legislation. Raci, what you have said is REALLY disappointing, because it is a HUGE example of how Clinton is lying to people. From factcheck: The mailer further charges that Obama "voted for Dick Cheney's energy bill that gives huge tax breaks to oil companies." Obama did vote for the 2005 energy bill to which Clinton refers. But as we've said more than once before, her claim that the legislation resulted in large tax breaks for the oil industry is misleading. In fact, the bill President Bush signed into law in 2005 actually raised taxes on the oil industry overall. The nonpartisan Congressional Research Service said that the Energy Policy Act "included several oil and gas tax incentives, providing about $2.6 billion of tax cuts for the oil and gas industry. In addition, [the act] provided for $2.9 billion of tax increases on the oil and gas industry, for a net tax increase on the industry of nearly $300 million over 11 years."
UnDave35 UnDave35 8 years
Obama voted for something?!?! I thought his big thing was just a "present"
stiletta stiletta 8 years
I don't know about you, but I want to know that my candidate can handle a fight. All this talk about dirty politics is part of the game. Do you think that our president, whoever it will be, won't be facing some nasty situations at home and abroad? I want my politician to throw dirty in the eyes of his opponent, because it's not going to get easier sitting in the oval office.
harmonyfrance harmonyfrance 8 years
Jill...None of that was directed at you. I was being a little silly to make a point. Every single "fact" that we know from both of these politicians can be spinned to benefit either of them. It just depends on who you believe. Most Obama supporters ALWAYS give him the benefit of the doubt no matter what the issue. Which makes sense...I mean he's your candidate and you support him. :) Well I choose to give Hillary Clinton the benefit of the doubt with some things. I don't see how that's different. I don't understand why it's automatically assumed that everything she has EVER been accused of is true. I don't understand why his "experts" are always right and her "experts" are always wrong as to what is better for our country and who's plan will work better. The odds of him being right on all fronts is virtually impossible. We are just going to have to agree to disagree about all politicians lying and cheating. I think they all do without exceptions. Of course there are levels of severity to the lies that they tell. BUT...they have both embellished their experience. They have both changed their opinions on issues before. They have both been caught lying about some dumb things. I just get irritated when she is painted as some evil witch hell bent on destroying our country and he is painted as the candidate with the perfect policies who can do no wrong. I feel the need to defend her sometimes. I'm sorry if it offended anyone.
raciccarone raciccarone 8 years
In 2005 Obama voted for the Energy Policy Act, which had enormous giveaways to oil companies, tax breaks and subsidies. It was such a huge giveaway to big oil that Senator Hillary Clinton voted against it, Senator John Kerry voted against it, Senator John McCain voted against it. Do you want more?
Jillness Jillness 8 years
I have never said that he doesn't have flaws. I think it is sad that people just assume that someone has to lie, cheat, and steal to be a politician and we should all be ok with that. I know that it is a tough business, but at the same time, I don't start accusing people of getting dirty with out some sort of proof. With Hillary, I know exact moments where she has lied, and that is far different to me than just assuming someone has. When you suggest that Obama supporters don't think he has any flaws, you are opposing an argument that doesn't exist. No Obama supporter I have ever spoken with has ever said he has no flaws. Obama is NOT more corporate than Hillary. What do you base that statement on? He doesn't take money from PACs. He doesn't have any current lobbiests on his campaign (where as Hilary had Mark Penn as the head of her campaign, and John McCain has lobbiests as the heads of his). Mark Penn is the CEO of a lobbying company that represents Haliburton and Blackwater. You don't get more corporate than that. Also, Bill Clinton started the FCC trend of increasing media ownership laws with the Federal Communications act of 1996, which has allowed companies like Clear Channel balloon out of control. Hillary requested 2.3 BILLION dollars in earmarks for 2009. Obama and McCain requested $0. How is Obama "in league" with Big Oil??? Hillary has put the spin out many times (and has been corrected many times) that the oil bill he voted for that she didn't actually INCREASED oil taxes, even though she claims that the legislation decreased oil taxes. The legislation decreased oil taxes in some areas, but increased them far more in other areas resulting in a net increase in taxes for big oil companies. Would someone who is "in" with them do that??
raciccarone raciccarone 8 years
Harmony, I am also shocked that Obama supporters don't acknowledge that he is more pro-corporate than either Hillary OR McCain. He is in league with big oil, voted to REauthorize the patriot act and thinks staying in Iraq is probably necessary. Honestly, if it's between him and McCain, I would vote for McCain.
harmonyfrance harmonyfrance 8 years
:ROTFL: Thanks UnDave! Although according to the quiz I'm a libertarian liberal. :)
UnDave35 UnDave35 8 years
I appreciate your ability to disagree without being disrespectful. It's refreshing to see one of you liberals has that ability ;) (I am only joking.) :)
harmonyfrance harmonyfrance 8 years
I certainly don't mean to be disrespectful to anyone by the way, it just really bewilders me sometimes...the double standards.
harmonyfrance harmonyfrance 8 years
My point undave is not that Obama has more negatives than Hillary. I certainly don't believe that. My point is that ALL politicians lie and cheat across all party lines. That's MY point. Obama is not exempt from that.
UnDave35 UnDave35 8 years
I can't respond directly to your comment since I am not sure that I support Obama. That said, I think that the problems (negatives) that Hilary brings to the office would be far worse than anything that Obama would bring. Knowing the difficulties that the communities in the south Chicagoland area have, I don't see the Rev. Wright issue as being a huge negative, but that is a different discussion. The point here is that Hillary wants us to believe she is different than her husband. She lies like him, and cheats like him, so how is she is different?
harmonyfrance harmonyfrance 8 years
Wow Rac! Thanks for defending Hillary for me while I was gone. ;) I always find it really amusing that people think Obama is above the trappings of a typical politician. People don't get as high up as Obama and Hillary without getting their hands dirty or getting involved with some undesirables. I am fully aware of all of Hillary's baggage, flaws, and undesirable traits. I've made my decision to support her despite them. What blows my mind is that (most) Obama supporters assume that every single negative thing that comes out about Hillary is automatically true and that every single negative thing that comes out about Obama is automatically false. What are the odds of that being the case? He has flaws too! He has undesirable traits too! He has baggage too! I would just love one of his supporters to actually admit that.
UnDave35 UnDave35 8 years
I find it interesting that Hillary was all about getting rid of the negative advertising, and playing above the board, until she started losing, and losing big.
vasanta vasanta 8 years
hillary is a good role model for dirty tricksters, and now it has come back to bite her. hillary is an amazing woman, no doubt, but she and her husband are quite comfortable with low level campaigning. obama prefers to discuss the issues. hillary thinks to herself "just get me elected, and i will do all the right things for the people of the usa." but she respects the people of america very little. it is more of a maternalism do-gooderism. she would be ok as president, but obama, he is the real thing.
Jillness Jillness 8 years
Mmmmm....pudding. Might get caught on your wiskers, though!
raciccarone raciccarone 8 years
You make a fair point. It may not have been him directly and you're right. I don't have any proof his campaign was responsible. And yes, I am a fan of pudding.
Jillness Jillness 8 years
The Indiana comment was mentioned in multiple reviews in both 1993 and 1995. It is documented. The Washington Post and the Sydney Morning Herald both put in print the Indiana "poo" comment. You know I respect your comments, but I have to say it is very disappointing that you are pinning this on Obama with NO PROOF. Just assumptions. Yes, it probably came from some random supporter, but to suggest that Obama knew about it or would condone it is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out of line. Your statement is not based in truth at all, just a guess. You can't fundementally change the lives of Americans without being involved in policy. If you would know Obama's history, it is clearly different from Hillary's and McCain's. His actions clearly show that he is concerned with improving the situations for working class people. The fact that he has not opened Hillary's many trunks of baggage is a testiment to how classy he is. Proof is in the pudding.
raciccarone raciccarone 8 years
Jilli, I am many things. I am a raccoon. I am not stupid. Do you really think this video has been floating around since 1992 and now, sixteen years later and just before the Indiana primary, it somehow appears? This is of course Obama, and frankly, I'm okay with it. It's politics. But please spare me the argument that Obama is any different from Hillary or McCain. If he were, he'd be something other than a politician.
Jillness Jillness 8 years
"All this talk about being above the fray and change and then they do this?" First of all, it is completely incorrect to suggest that Obama came out with this. This video has been around for years, and his campaign would never do something like this. They win when the focus is issues, and he wants to keep the focus on that. I think that saying the video came from him, when there is absolutely no proof of that, is not called for. Obama does want to win, I am not denying that. I just don't think that he would use disguise a harmful policy and trick people to do it. THAT is why he is different. His honesty about the gas tax holiday, which has been verified by numerous respected sources, reaffirms this.
raciccarone raciccarone 8 years
yesteryear, please watch your political chants. I find them offensive.
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