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Jiminy Cricket! Bush's White House Issues "Conscience Rule"

Jiminy Cricket! Bush's White House Issues "Conscience Rule"

Medical professionals who oppose abortion, sterilization, certain contraception, or other medical procedures for moral or religious reasons still have a friend in President Bush. The Bush administration formally issued its "conscience rule" today, which prohibits recipients of federal money from discriminating against doctors, nurses, or other healthcare providers who refuse to participate in procedures as a result of their convictions.

The current secretary of Health and Human Services explains that "This rule protects the right of medical providers to care for their patients in accord with their conscience." But such protection might not last for long, since Barack Obama's already looking for a Plan B. The transition team has dedicated time to figuring out how to reverse the right of conscience as soon as possible. It could take some time though.

Since a conscience is inherently subjective, it seems problematic to let a sliding standard determine healthcare available to patients. Can you think of any other job a person would get if he refused to do part of it? Do you think requiring healthcare professionals to provide legal services that offend their morals is discrimination or reasonable?

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kh61582 kh61582 7 years
Clearly you all do not understand the concept because you don't have strong religious beliefs. That's OK. You're in the same boat with a lot of liberals. The flipside of saying "Well what if a serial killer needed medical treatment?" is a completely seperate issue because that is about helping something to survive not killing it. Why don't you try thinking of the worst thing you could be asked to do. Something that is totally againist your belief system and ask yourself, if your boss told you to do it would you? If I were a practicing doctor and the law told me to perform an abortion and I was opposed to it I would rather quit my job than be forced to do something I considered morally wrong. If this is made into law I hope those doctors do just that so that they are taken seriously. Imagine how many good doctors this country could loose because liberals need everybody to think just like them?
Symphonee Symphonee 7 years
"I support abortion for all those women out there who got knocked up and simply didn't want to be bothered with it." Everyone has a choice as to how they want to live their lives. Some people work hard, some people rob, some people abstain from sex...yadda yadda yadda... I have been there and it is not a pretty place to be. Adoption was not a choice because 1) I did not want to confuse or cause emotional harm to my child by finding them later (which I know that I would do) 2) The adoption system where I live is horrible. I know a man who is such a thorough mess that it permanently scarred me to the system. I was sullen for days and I still have moments where I feel like complete crap about it. You never forget it. It hurts but if I had the choice I would do it again. Yeah I get the whole should have kept my legs close idea but I CHOOSE not to and I CHOOSE to have an abortion. So unless you would have CHOSEN to have raised my child and proved to me that you would have been a fit parent, leave it be. I am pro choice but I also believe that doctor's should have a choice. Don't stop their funding. However, I do have issue with these same doctors and pharmacists not providing information about alternative doctors or pharmacists that will perform these procedures or fill the prescriptions.
Symphonee Symphonee 7 years
This issue is not really about abortion but about funding. If a OB/GYN wants to refuse to do abortions on moral grounds then that's their right. Should they no longer receive funding because he or she chooses not to perform these procedures? I say no. I am an adovocate for women's right but I do not believe that it is fair for doctors to lose funding that they are otherwise entitled to because of their moral code. Just because you do not believe in abortion does not mean that you should not become a doctor. You should, however be professional enough to not push your moral choices onto your patients. calmly inform them that you do not perform these procedure for your own personal reasons and then direct them to someone else who can help, if you are so inclined to do so.
StolzeMama StolzeMama 7 years
Even my husband who is avidly pro-choice agrees with this decision by our president.
jueycruiser jueycruiser 7 years
k from my post like 4 pages ago... im not judging anybody. if you want to get an abortion, great go ahead, thats your personal choice, i dont care one way or the other. but if you are a doctor or a nurse and you are at your job and you personally feel like abortion is murder, you shouldnt be FORCED to do it or else lose your job. taking care of murderers, thats not a choice, that is something you do to the best of your ability without taking the fact that the patient is a murderer, child rapist, etc. into account. if you want to be all pro choice about it, how about letting your caregivers make the choice of whether or not they want to be involved in it. thats all im saying.
StolzeMama StolzeMama 7 years
It would be like saying because we passed this law in California that says chickens have a right to stand up and turn around, that means they want to shut down all chicken farms. It is just a stretch. And until there is a situation that arises from this new law, I think you should all calm down, because it is highly unlikely that this will happen.
StolzeMama StolzeMama 7 years
You don't agree with abortion, so just don't be a doctor????? that is the most ridiculous logic I have ever heard!!!! I think this is awesome!!!! Yay for Bush. And I hope it takes Obama a really long time to change it back. And if he does I will be upset. The oath states to first do no harm. If you believe morally that performing an abortion is harmful, they CANNOT perform the procedure. And all of the situations brought up in the thread are hypothetical and would be rare if they happened at all considering that the health of the mother is such a small percentage of abortions anyways.
Jillness Jillness 7 years
"Jill they arent taking anything away, they are refusing to give it." IMO, if a doctor prescribes you a medication and intends for you to receive it and the pharamcist decides to deny you that medication, then yes they are taking it away from you. Taking it away from you with only a fraction of the information (or education) needed to decide whether that medication is in your best interest, no less. I find it so interesting that this discussion jumped so far into abortion territory, when I think the most horrifying thing about this last minute policy is that it extends to SO MANY other things besides abortion. This isn't about abortion, it is about control over reproductive rights in general...which includes so many things.
mydiadem mydiadem 7 years
I'm still not sure what the 'pro-life' or 'anti-abortion' definition of abortion would be. If someone could give me a clear definition that would be helpful.
stephley stephley 7 years
They might, just to be able to call for the death penalty for the mother.
Michelann Michelann 7 years
Steph, the terms are important to the debate because people use the weaknesses of the terms like they're weaknesses in the opposing side's argument. For example, you said that people who claim to be "pro-life" aren't really pro-life unless they support a whole host of other causes that promote the sanctity of life in general. But obviously people who claim to be "pro-life", in most cases, are talking specifically about abortion. So by calling them out on not being truly "pro-life", it's just distracting from the real issue at hand. Which is abortion, and not 'life' in general. The term "pro-choice" is just as bad because, obviously, people who support the right to have an abortion aren't really promoting "choice" as a general concept. Those terms are political and inaccurate, and they cloud an already complicated debate.
organicsugr organicsugr 7 years
I still think they would object to the mother killing the child after it was born.
stephley stephley 7 years
CG, someone who says they don't worry about the child once it's born isn't an extremist: they're someone who sets limits on their responsibility to life.
stephley stephley 7 years
"My issue is that so much time is spent attacking pro-lifers, based on the fact that they don't agree that all life is equally sacred. Even though their position is about abortion." Sorry, thought he mentioned life being equally sacred for a reason. The term for each group has been argued since the 70's, and really, aren't terribly important to whether or not once person's conscience trumps another person's rights.
CaterpillarGirl CaterpillarGirl 7 years
I have met many prochoice people who have said that they would abort all the way to the third term, so there are extremists in every group, I just dont take their drivel as the norm.
Michelann Michelann 7 years
Where are you coming from? He's not making a comment about the post itself, and he never said that abortion "isn't about the sanctity of life". "Pro-life" and "pro-choice" are vague terms that could mean many different things. Instead of clouding the debate with silly terms, we should call the positions what they are; pro-abortion and anti-abortion. That's really all Org was saying.
stephley stephley 7 years
The point of the post is the Bush administration's conscience rule. If abortion isn't about the sanctity of life, where's the problem?
Michelann Michelann 7 years
Steph, he really isn't taking a position on the issue, just making a comment on how inaccurate the terms "pro-life" and "pro-abortion" are. I don't see how that would take away any options about anything.
organicsugr organicsugr 7 years
I'm afraid I don't know what you're talking about.
stephley stephley 7 years
Then it seems to me that you take away any option to opt out of being involved in a procedure on conscience grounds.
organicsugr organicsugr 7 years
My point has nothing to do with any of that. I'm not commenting at all on whether or not I think abortion is good, bad, equivalent or whatever. I decline to comment on this issue for a number of reasons. But, My point was that pro-life is a silly term, and that pro-choice is an equally silly term. And if you really want to have such a serious debate, it should be with accurate terms. My issue is that so much time is spent attacking pro-lifers, based on the fact that they don't agree that all life is equally sacred. Even though their position is about abortion. Pro-choice is equally easily skewed and attacked, based on the fact that pro-choicers don't agree that all choices are equally important. Even though their position is also about abortion So, that is how I arrive at the fact that the debate should be about abortion as opposed to spinning the various terms of the sides.
stephley stephley 7 years
Merry Christmas Krank. Mich, I didn't think he meant immoral; I do think he's too quick to link money and political issues to the abortion issue and matters of allowing one person's conscience to dictate another person's rights.
kranky kranky 7 years
Yeah! Boss said we could start the Holiday early! :woohoo: Talk to ya'll after Christmas! Happy Holidays and thanks for debating with me!
Michelann Michelann 7 years
Steph, Org's point wasn't that "pro-choice" people are immoral, it was simply that "pro-choice" is a silly and completely inaccurate term. Just like "pro-life".
stephley stephley 7 years
This: "To be pro-choice to my satisfaction is to believe that parents should be able to choose to control all educational funds for their children. And the ability to choose to buy as many firearms as one wants. How about the choice of whether or not to join a union. Even the choice to develop missle defense privately. Or the choice to opt out of taxation of private property." I've met many ardent anti-abortion people who have said to me that what happens to the child once it is born is no longer their concern.
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