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Who Won the Debate Last Night

Debate Rebate: Does This Mean Hillary Won?

Warning! What follows is purely opinion. I'm sure there are quite a few out there who will disagree . . . Let us know, won't you?

Citizen: There's a fairytale that tells the story of a leader who is so taken with the creation of his own image, and his supporters are so equally under his spell, that they'll let him walk around naked, rather than disavow him of the idea that he's wearing a beautiful suit of silken threads. That story haunted me last night.

My mission last night was to watch Barack Obama. (Liberty and I each picked a candidate we weren't voting for, to try to glean a little perspective.) And I tried. Oh, lord did I try. In the harsh light of day, even while the replay of the debate flickers in my face, I'm left empty. I'm not entirely convinced that Obama's continual refrain of "I agree with Senator Clinton" is the basis for a strong case for nomination.

And I admit: I peeked. I paid rapt attention to every detailed, feasible plan Hillary laid forth. Her unflappable competence was more compelling to me than a truckload of platitudes. I listened to Hillary, and though my vote isn't hers, I agree with and apply this, her final sentiment from last night: If Hillary is elected, we will be fine. America will be fine.

After the convention, if Obama walks away with the nomination, I fear his candidacy will be the ultimate political embodiment of The Emperor's New Clothes. His beautiful words nothing but a transparent silken suit, his followers left to choose a man naked of plan and experience because, well, he just looked so darn good on the rack.

Liberty: So, the big Xerox comment . . . Meh? I don't feel as heated as some about the whole "plagiarizing" debate. I assume that an army of advisers and speech writers are contributing to each candidate's material. Did Hillary write the Xerox comment herself? Given the uncomfortable delivery of the YouTube follow-up, it's doubtful. I know it's different than Obama pulling complete passages, but come on — the "silly season" comment stands. Is this the kind of stuff Americans care about?

But now that it's the reigning soundbite, Hillary should use the attention the Xerox zinger got to drive home the idea that Obama lacks substance. Clinton's ability to express distilled yet comprehensive plans that will address specific problems seriously impressed me.

Overall, I left wanting more. Nothing new came out. I know they disagree about a healthcare mandate. I know Barack was against the war, and Hillary voted for it. My parting sentiment mirrored that of Hillary's — My vote has already been cast, it's almost over, and I just hope that whatever happens, as a nation, we will soon roll up our sleeves and start solving problems.

For pointed video of Hillary "recycling" a few campaign sentiments of her own, and the actual quote of Hillary's "Xerox" comment,

.

Hillary Clinton:

Well, I think that if your candidacy is going to be about words, then they should be your own words. That's, I think, a very simple proposition. (Applause.) And you know — you know, lifting whole passages from someone else's speeches is not change you can believe in; it's change you can Xerox.

Hmm . . . roll tape?

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trésjolie1 trésjolie1 8 years
Lainetm: How nice! I guess we've drifted off topic here.. but oh well! Always nice to find common ground. :)
pyleela pyleela 8 years
I have supported Clinton this entire time, but now all three of main current candidates have lost me in their political games. I've always been disillusioned, but this campaign is turning out to be just as bad as some of the other ones, and earlier too...
Cassandra57 Cassandra57 8 years
Meg, that was not aimed at anyone in particular. I worry about anyone who identifies as a "team" member, they seem to be replacing independent, critical thought with trust that some entity will take care of them and always do the right thing. Tresjolie: My 17-y-o DD spent last school year in the eastern Netherlands, about 10 K from Germany. She loved it and plans to return to stay.
Cassandra57 Cassandra57 8 years
Meg, that was not aimed at anyone in particular. I worry about anyone who identifies as a "team" member, they seem to be replacing independent, critical thought with trust that some entity will take care of them and always do the right thing. Tresjolie: My 17-y-o DD spent last school year in the eastern Netherlands, about 10 K from Germany. She loved it and plans to return to stay.
trésjolie1 trésjolie1 8 years
Ooh, is it nice there?? Always wanted to visit Scotland.
Advah Advah 8 years
This is slighty off-topic, but @Candycr: trust me, you don't want to move to France. I moved to Scotland. :P
Advah Advah 8 years
This is slighty off-topic, but @Candycr: trust me, you don't want to move to France.I moved to Scotland. :P
trésjolie1 trésjolie1 8 years
"Bush won both his elections because the Democrats put up weak candidates. We had to choose between the lesser of two evils. This year, the choice looks like incompetence, dictatorship, or impending senility. Yay."LMAO! So funny. I agree that both Gore and Kerry were weak candidates. Knowing that both elections were very close it really convinces me that Obama will win against McCain. I live abroad, but for work reasons, not political ones. For you who think France is perfect; you should read up on it's vast immigration and integration problems, creating ghettos surrounding it's larger cities. They also have a President who won partly because he used fear tactics, and partly because his opposing candidate was a really weak opponent. Kind of like Bush. So far he , Sarkozy, has done little about the big problems France faces; while keeping busy getting elected, divorced, and married in a matter of months. He also managed to get on Angela Merkel's nerves, the German chancellor. (side note; I don't live in France, despite of my random nickname on this site. I live in Berlin, Germany. But I travel a lot.)I think we can learn so much from other countries, cultures and political systems, but replicating them is not a preferable road, nor is it a common wish among Democrats. Just because we think fear mongering is wrong doesn't mean we are ignorant, and just because we are Democrats, or vote for a Democratic candidate, doesn't make us any less patriotic. It seems to be an attitude I encounter often talking politics.
trésjolie1 trésjolie1 8 years
"Bush won both his elections because the Democrats put up weak candidates. We had to choose between the lesser of two evils. This year, the choice looks like incompetence, dictatorship, or impending senility. Yay." LMAO! So funny. I agree that both Gore and Kerry were weak candidates. Knowing that both elections were very close it really convinces me that Obama will win against McCain. I live abroad, but for work reasons, not political ones. For you who think France is perfect; you should read up on it's vast immigration and integration problems, creating ghettos surrounding it's larger cities. They also have a President who won partly because he used fear tactics, and partly because his opposing candidate was a really weak opponent. Kind of like Bush. So far he , Sarkozy, has done little about the big problems France faces; while keeping busy getting elected, divorced, and married in a matter of months. He also managed to get on Angela Merkel's nerves, the German chancellor. (side note; I don't live in France, despite of my random nickname on this site. I live in Berlin, Germany. But I travel a lot.) I think we can learn so much from other countries, cultures and political systems, but replicating them is not a preferable road, nor is it a common wish among Democrats. Just because we think fear mongering is wrong doesn't mean we are ignorant, and just because we are Democrats, or vote for a Democratic candidate, doesn't make us any less patriotic. It seems to be an attitude I encounter often talking politics.
megnmac megnmac 8 years
Ha, I don't think my choosing to support the Dems is really blind loyalty, Lainetm. I think blindly ALWAYS supporting a party may be, but I'm an independent (it means something for AZ politics) and I'd support any candidate that supported my values. With a race down to Huckabee/McCain/Clinton/Obama, it really doesn't matter which Dem wins, since the differences between them are so small and I don't support the policies of the Reps that have come this far (though I respect McCain in so many ways, we ultimately diverge on our vision of the country). To recognize that there are party differences and differences within each party is important, the party system is just a shorthand to start from. The gulf between McCain and Huckabee seems enormous, but Obama/Clinton policy differences and value differences don't seem that drastic to me. So I can at this point just back the Dem party and be done. It can be really thought out, parties evolve and change, and voters can't just hold on to what the party did 50 years ago, but this time around, I know who I want in that White House and whose voices I want heard and it is the Dems surrounding Clinton or Obama.
megnmac megnmac 8 years
Ha, I don't think my choosing to support the Dems is really blind loyalty, Lainetm. I think blindly ALWAYS supporting a party may be, but I'm an independent (it means something for AZ politics) and I'd support any candidate that supported my values. With a race down to Huckabee/McCain/Clinton/Obama, it really doesn't matter which Dem wins, since the differences between them are so small and I don't support the policies of the Reps that have come this far (though I respect McCain in so many ways, we ultimately diverge on our vision of the country). To recognize that there are party differences and differences within each party is important, the party system is just a shorthand to start from. The gulf between McCain and Huckabee seems enormous, but Obama/Clinton policy differences and value differences don't seem that drastic to me. So I can at this point just back the Dem party and be done. It can be really thought out, parties evolve and change, and voters can't just hold on to what the party did 50 years ago, but this time around, I know who I want in that White House and whose voices I want heard and it is the Dems surrounding Clinton or Obama.
Cassandra57 Cassandra57 8 years
Wow, lots of comments on this one. A few remarks of my own: Sadly, neither Democratic candidate is qualified. Obama is a noob and Clinton’s experience is primarily hosting state dinners. Her one big policy effort, national health care, fell flat—and she’s still trying to force it on us. I’m frightened by people supporting a team, be it the “Obama team” or the “Clinton team” or just the “Democratic team”. National politics is too important for that. The remark that “For me the ultimate goal is to get a democrat elected, be it Hillary or Obama.” shows blind loyalty, not a reasoned choice. Jillness / Citizen: Thanks for pointing out Obama’s detailed policy statements. This is the sort of thing we should all scrutinize closely before making a choice. Who cares if it’s formulated with the assistance of a team of advisors? No one is good at everything, so the smart folks know when to consult experts. Candycr: “…Bush's fear mongering...and any democratic candidate that wants those votes needs to lay out a tough, specific plan to protect us against terrorism.” Fear mongering? Do you *remember* 9/11? The bombings of our overseas embassies? So our caution is unfounded? I can’t fully defend our military actions in Iraq, but the Democratic plan is for us to pull out, and keep the borders open. Not what I would call “national security”. IMO it’s one of the main arguments against voting Democratic. Also, Bush is many things, but not a “murderous war criminal”. Look in the Sudan, or even Cuba, if you want to see a dictator who kills for entertainment. Change is not always automatically a good thing. Onabanana: Great comparison! Like Nixon, Clinton is intelligent, but fatally flawed. Too much of a control freak. Operates too much on her own terms, and is completely ruthless. A lot of folks need to read up on her history. And, she wants this *way* too much. Bush won both his elections because the Democrats put up weak candidates. We had to choose between the lesser of two evils. This year, the choice looks like incompetence, dictatorship, or impending senility. Yay. BTW, I wish all the people who threaten to emigrate based on election results would just keep their word and get on with it. (Hear that, father of the year Alec Baldwin?)
Cadet Cadet 8 years
Haha, I'm waiting for Obama to really say something, too...
shalee55 shalee55 8 years
I HAVE BEEN WATCHING AND LISTENING...AND I'M WAITING FOR OBAMA TO REALLY SAY SOMETHING...I WENT TO COLLEGE...I'M NOT STUPID...BUT I DON'T HAVE ESP....WHAT'S GOING ON....????
Cassandra57 Cassandra57 8 years
They both terrify me. Obama is all style and no substance. Clinton has some ideas and plans, all bad. I'm sick of politicians micro-managing my life. Most programs the government runs--and I work for a public education organization--are inefficient, overly bureaucratic, and not very effective. Do you want your medical care run the same way? Look at some of the stories finally being published here about the effectiveness of the British medical system. What we really should have done was prevent the hemmorhaging of jobs overseas, *not* signed NAFTA, and promoted the growth of good, union jobs here. Then more of us would have compensation packages with medical insurance included. Oh, and which President signed NAFTA. Surely it was some corporate stooge. Oh, that's right, it was Bill Clinton.
Cassandra57 Cassandra57 8 years
They both terrify me. Obama is all style and no substance. Clinton has some ideas and plans, all bad. I'm sick of politicians micro-managing my life. Most programs the government runs--and I work for a public education organization--are inefficient, overly bureaucratic, and not very effective. Do you want your medical care run the same way? Look at some of the stories finally being published here about the effectiveness of the British medical system. What we really should have done was prevent the hemmorhaging of jobs overseas, *not* signed NAFTA, and promoted the growth of good, union jobs here. Then more of us would have compensation packages with medical insurance included. Oh, and which President signed NAFTA. Surely it was some corporate stooge. Oh, that's right, it was Bill Clinton.
trésjolie1 trésjolie1 8 years
megmccoy; excellently said. Your reasoning really hits the core, and it was a pleasure reading it too.
megnmac megnmac 8 years
I am a cynical lawyer poli sci major - I don't care who writes the speeches or makes up the plans. We are voting for the person and the people they surround themselves with - the current White House is a perfect example. The cabinet is very strong and the influence of Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc is obvious. Bush wasn't born into this world with all the policies worked out and the experience he could run on was his cabinet's. I support whichever candidate gets the nomination, and want that Dem to win because I believe the people in the White House supporting the pres matter, and I want that cabinet to be Dems. I think the President is the face of these people's ideas, and mediates as the leader. I trust Obama a little more as the face of this nation, as a mediator and peacemaker within the nation and in foreign affairs. I like the inspiration Obama offers, I like that he embraces hope and I don't think it rings empty. I guess I just see the Pres as a representative of all the ideas from the party, all the Pres does is set the tone and the differences are so minute, and I like Obama as the man to do it.
megnmac megnmac 8 years
I am a cynical lawyer poli sci major - I don't care who writes the speeches or makes up the plans. We are voting for the person and the people they surround themselves with - the current White House is a perfect example. The cabinet is very strong and the influence of Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc is obvious. Bush wasn't born into this world with all the policies worked out and the experience he could run on was his cabinet's. I support whichever candidate gets the nomination, and want that Dem to win because I believe the people in the White House supporting the pres matter, and I want that cabinet to be Dems. I think the President is the face of these people's ideas, and mediates as the leader. I trust Obama a little more as the face of this nation, as a mediator and peacemaker within the nation and in foreign affairs. I like the inspiration Obama offers, I like that he embraces hope and I don't think it rings empty. I guess I just see the Pres as a representative of all the ideas from the party, all the Pres does is set the tone and the differences are so minute, and I like Obama as the man to do it.
x_juicyfruit x_juicyfruit 8 years
I am among the minority, but I still stand by Clinton's side. I think she had an excellent debate.
Cadet Cadet 8 years
I couldn't agree more, ladies. I'm so tired of all this pomp and circumstance! I can't wait until the party nominations are finalized... I'm getting tired of this continual back and forth bickering between which candidate is more suited. I just wish the delegates were all sorted out so the democrats can finally come together to support a single candidate. The educated voters aren't changing their opinions and I couldn't be more thrilled with that! At least that shows that people care about the issues. I honestly don't expect everyone to see my point in Clinton's universal healthcare plan. But I could always just go to Canada and pay $9 for an EKG, so... ;) Oh yea, and GO CLINTON!
Cadet Cadet 8 years
I couldn't agree more, ladies. I'm so tired of all this pomp and circumstance! I can't wait until the party nominations are finalized... I'm getting tired of this continual back and forth bickering between which candidate is more suited. I just wish the delegates were all sorted out so the democrats can finally come together to support a single candidate. The educated voters aren't changing their opinions and I couldn't be more thrilled with that! At least that shows that people care about the issues. I honestly don't expect everyone to see my point in Clinton's universal healthcare plan. But I could always just go to Canada and pay $9 for an EKG, so... ;)Oh yea, andGO CLINTON!
juju4 juju4 8 years
I have to say it makes me SO proud to see an enthusiastic discussion about politics getting as many posts as a Britney thread! Hugs all around. :-)
trésjolie1 trésjolie1 8 years
Great comments, people(all of you, not just the ones I agree with). I got to say that this post really rubbed me the wrong way. I'm calm now, though! ;)
Jillness Jillness 8 years
"I just would love to see us LESS dependent on other countries than we are now. I feel that our fuel situation is an outrage, and we need to be more self-sufficient."I agree with this! ;)
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